Home » African Cichlids » Lake Victoria » Restocking endangered cichilds ( ) 2 Vote(s)
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #698] |
Sat, 03 August 2002 14:09   |
 Gass 
Messages: 404
Registered: April 2002
Location: Lake Canyonyika TX |
Senior Member |
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Christian
I think your cause is noble but not very practical. I'm not sure you understand
the circumstances that caused and is causing the expiration of Victorian
cichlids but it's something that is irreversible. If you would like to research
this situation more, I would suggest beginning by reading the forward on the
Victorian cichlid section of our site. It will give you some idea of things and
there is lots more out there if you care to dig.
I'm not as familiar with the problems going on in Madagascar but I understand
that encroaching human developement and deforestation is part of the problem.
Madagascar cichlids are no more related to Victorian cichlids than are the
cichlids found in the Americas. There are not naturally occuring species in
both Madagascar and Victoria. The same common name does not necessarily denote
the same fish.
I'm not certian on the restocking program going on in Madagascar or with
Madagascar cichlids, but for Lake Victoria and some of the surrounding satellite
lakes it is understood by most serious hobbyists that the restocking of cichlids
to their ancestors' native waters, while the problems that cause their
eridication still goes unchecked, is just fool hardy. Most restocking programs
that I have run across are no more than a plea from certian people for free rare
fish.
If you were able to get things back to their pristine conditions, the way things
were before man's interference, how would one know where to place a colony of
fish? For example: If Pundamilia nyererei from Ruti Island were to go extinct
in the wild (and it looks like this will happen in the next few years), how
would one know where exactly to restock this fish? Ruti island is pretty big..
The mbipi from Victoria have evolved to take advantage of micro niches in
regards to feeding and shelter. How deep is the water where their habitat once
was? Ruti Island is home to many different locale varients of nyererei. How
could man possibly know how to deal with this? Everytime man plays God, he ends
up screwing things up. We have proven this time and time again. How about
introducing a game fish like the Nile Perch into Lake Victoria so we can fish
for something substantial? The perch is just one reason for the problems in
Victoria. It's pushing what little remains of the native cichlid population
(what it hasn't eaten yet) into areas where they are safer. This mixes many
different fish and of course introduces a new problem: hybridization. It's my
theory that hybrids are now the norm and not the exception among furu in Lake
Victoria. Add to this that the deforestation around Lake Victoria is causing
erosion and soil is washing into the lake; water hyacinth has run rampant due to
the pollutants washing into the lake as well... all of this makes for a clouded,
murky environment for fish that rely on visual cues for mate selection, and
further contributes to the problems with hybridization. How are we even to know
that the fish we're pulling out of the lake now are actually FROM this spot
originally? I am unsure if you realize how big an area we are talking about with
Lake Victoria or Madagascar, but they are much more than a pond and a small
island.
I would like to know more obout this reintorduction program but I hope you
understand if I am VERY skeptical about it. Common sense and a little knowlege
are reason enough to have doubts. Perhaps you know where we can find what Mr.
Neilson has to say on the web somewhere.
I'm going to post this message on our message board, because I have a feeling
there will be a lot of responses and constructive arguments for both sides, and
I feel this thread is worthy of having a permanent record... please post
responses on our message board. Look for it under Lake Victoria.
Please don't let us scare you off... this is just the sort of thing we need to
discuss on our site... it's one of the many reasons we're here. Welcome to the
gang 
Gas
http://www.africancichlids.net
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #699] |
Sat, 03 August 2002 14:44 |
LeeAnn
Messages: 351
Registered: April 2002
Location: TX - Mrs. Gas |
Senior Member |
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It is horrible what we, as a species, have done to much of our 'wilds'... I could go on and on about man-assisted introduction of non-native species into an area to 'fix' other problems, and there is just not enough room on the internet for my rant about what "we" are doing to the planet on the whole with deforestation and pollution. Bottom line is, there are just too many people on this planet to exist without making some 'negative' impact on other life forms.
In the grand scheme of things, man has been on this earth for a very tiny period of time. The world spun before we came, and it will continue to do so long after we are gone. There were catastrophic changes to climate, geology and the balance of life forms many MANY times before we came along... and yet life goes on. Even though we seem to make a tremendous impact on other forms of life, over the course of eons, it's probably not much of an impact at all. Perhaps you should read the collective works of George Carlin called the Earth is Fine In it, he states that the only reason Mother Nature created man was because she wanted plastic and didn't know how to make it herself. Now that she has her plastic, the day will come when some virus will wipe us out (and then, my friends, the Victorian and Madascar species flocks will right themselves - maybe the exact same species won't be there, but you can bet they'll be similar).
One thing about man... there seems to be an insatiable desire to 'fix' things... to return them to a 'pristine' state after we've messed things up. It's just not as easy as running into your neighbor's car and saying 'Oh, sorry, let me buy you a new one.' (note... the banged up car is still SOMEWHERE - it doesn't just disappear). The balances of life are fragile. Once you remove a species from its niche, something else is going to fill it, and when you reintroduce the original species (if you are indeed successful), you will just be messing up a new balance. Who says things aren't supposed to change? Rather than going back to 'fix' things we've messed up, I think it would be more productive to STOP MESSING IT UP and let it return to its natural state all by itself. Over time, that's what things tend to do anyway.
Case in point... the Fire Ant. Years ago, when fire ants were first introduced to Texas and went on a horrible rampage, seemingly wiping out species such as the red ant, the horny toad (horned lizard to you purists) and earth worms. I can remember not being able to stand in one place even with shoes on because I'd be swarmed and stung hundreds of times. One of my friends from school had a motorcycle accident... he wasn't killed by the wreck... he was killed by the fire ants that swarmed his body when he fell off his bike and couldn't get up. BUT NOW... the fire ants have apparently hybridized with local ants. They are still here, and still hurt like hell when you're stung, but they aren't nearly as bad as they used to be. We're seeing more species of ants coming back every year, and for the first time in a couple of decades, I've actually seen a horny toad skittering across the ground. You can walk barefoot in the grass again, even in sight of a fire ant mound. They just aren't as bad as they used to be... at least not here. I figure eventually we won't even know they were here. Same said for 'killer' bees.
OK I got interrupted and lost my train of thought... maybe I'll continue on this later if you all don't blast me out of existence 
Lee Ann
http://www.africancichlids.net/
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #700] |
Sat, 03 August 2002 15:16 |
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Thing is we are not going to be introducing non-native species to the lakes, Reasearch has been made about what species go to which lake, granted finding the exact spot in the lake that the fish came from is impossible or actually I should say improbable. Since as we all know so well fish do not stay in one general area all of their lives, they do go to other places in search of food. Yes I agree, Man/women have made horrible dents in the enviroment of fish and animal alike. But we are not talking about placing game fish (predators at that) into a non-native lake for them, we are working on placing more of the origional native species back to the lakes (mostly focused on Madagascar right now) with hopes or keeping a highly endangered species from becoming completely extinct in the wild. Granted we can all buy these fish with a little researching the web for dealers selling them, but whats going to happen after there are none in the lakes anymore? The natural beauty of the fish will be forever lost. Granted the fish will still be in our tanks requardless of them being in the lakes as well, but it would be a great asset for these fish to survive in the wild instead of just captive pets that we keep. Paretroplus menerambo Pinstripe Damba is one of the fish from madagascar that is on the Critically endangered species list right now. And sure enough we can buy this fish right now for $55 a pair (wilds) but then whats going to happen once there are no more in the wild? Many species of Lake Victoria has ended this way so why not try and help prevent it? There are alot of beautiful fish that people will no longer see due to commercial expantions near lakes and streams. Yes this is something that will never change until we humans have sued up all the land, but why not try to help save the species as long as we possibly can so that others may view and learn from these fish things like actions, rituals, attitudes, etc... I know if I ever have a child of my own I would love it to see some of the fish that I have kept at the age I am now. Its very very relaxing to see the fish glide through the water gracefully like a skater on ice. There are cases of Piranha in the USA and snakeheads in Maryland USA all because some people bought these fish and either was not correctly informed of the requirements for the fish and was looking for a way to get rid of them or they got tired of them or they just thought it would be a funny joke to do this. These are the idiots that should not be able to have fish and animals at all. They are not responsable and all they did was introduce non native predatory fish into forien water ways. Not to mention one of the above fish mentioned can cause great harm to us as humans. In Florida USA you can go to certian lakes and fish for Oscars. Again its a non native fish to our water ways that is reaping havoc on the local native fish. These are claimed to be excapies from local fish farms in Florida. Were there ways to prevent that? I think there was. Did the company do anything to prevent it? Probably not because as we all know to well companies are out to make money not spend money.
This posting is getting a little long so I will end it here or I could go on for ever about it. Ron Neilson is working to get a conservation group started based here in the USA, but the Madagascar government is not allowing anyone to be an agent for us to restock the lake, Honestly I can see the worries about responcibility of not introducing non native species into the lake. But, they could be more willing to at least inspect the livestock that are going to be introduced back to the lakes before the fish actually hits the water. But from my understanding they claim that they are more worried about people from other countries getting caught up in things that are happening there currently. Here is a web address to Ron Neilsons Yahoo group if anyone is interested http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cichlidconservation/
Its not the agressiveness of your fish that matter, its how you raise them.
Been in the hobby of fish keeping since I was 7 when my mom bought me a 29gallon Clarity Plus acrylic tank and all the equipment to go with it. To this day that setup is still in use but the tanks in the house have grown. Now I have the following tanks. 90gallon, 75gallon, 55 gallon, 30 gallon, three 29 gallon, six 20 gallon high, seven 10 gallon tanks and a few birthing boxes I made myself. Soon to make more tanks out of acrylic and a product called Weld-On as the adhesive.
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #710] |
Sun, 04 August 2002 17:21 |
LeeAnn
Messages: 351
Registered: April 2002
Location: TX - Mrs. Gas |
Senior Member |
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We knew we were going to get a lot of good discussion with this and it's off to a good start. Fantastic. Thanks, Sean, you have summed up a lot of what I was thinking before I was interrupted with my last post. I'll make a few comments on my own following quotes from other posts below:
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But we are not talking about placing game fish (predators at that) into a non-native lake for them, we are working on placing more of the origional native species back to the lakes (mostly focused on Madagascar right now) with hopes or keeping a highly endangered species from becoming completely extinct in the wild.
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I think this was in response to when Gas wrote "How about
introducing a game fish like the Nile Perch into Lake Victoria so we can fish for something substantial?"... This was retrospective sarcasm. These predatory fish have already been introduced, and are one of the big reasons we're losing the native cichlid flocks in Lake Victoria. Same can be said, as you mentioned, in North American waters where the Oscar and other aqurium fish has been introduced by ignorant pet owners. The point is, we need to tend to THIS problem before you can even begin to dream about restocking, or you'll just be sentencing the restocked fish to death as soon as they hit the water.
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Since as we all know so well fish do not stay in one general area all of their lives, they do go to other places in search of food.
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I don't believe this is necessarily true, especially in rock cichlids. Genetic isolation has produced many different locale variants within the same species. Without it, they'd all look alike.
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Granted we can all buy these fish with a little researching the web for dealers selling them, but whats going to happen after there are none in the lakes anymore?
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What IS going to happen?
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The natural beauty of the fish will be forever lost.
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Lost to whom? How many people get to dive in these waters and have a look around? You can only really enjoy them in tanks, and they're really only protected in aquariums. I'm not saying that it's not tragic... not at all. But if your reasons for conserving these fish is so that their beauty can be enjoyed by man, then you're really no less selfish than the people that are wreaking havoc on their native waters... in fact, more selfish. They're just trying to survive. You're just trying to make sure that your grandchildren can SEE a fish (and they can see them just fine in your aquarium).
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but it would be a great asset for these fish to survive in the wild instead of just captive pets that we keep.
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There are alot of beautiful fish that people will no longer see due to commercial expantions near lakes and streams. Yes this is something that will never change until we humans have sued up all the land, but why not try to help save the species as long as we possibly can so that others may view and learn from these fish things like actions, rituals, attitudes, etc... I know if I ever have a child of my own I would love it to see some of the fish that I have kept at the age I am now. Its very very relaxing to see the fish glide through the water gracefully like a skater on ice.
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Why? I'm not disagreeing that what's happening to these species is a tragedy... I just want to make sure you really know WHY you're trying to reintroduce them in the wild? "So people can enjoy them" is not a very good reason  People can enjoy them in aquariums.
When a habitat is endangered, destroyed, or when populations have become so scarce that they cannot sustain their numbers against predation (including human hunting), zoos (and aquariums) become a sanctuary. Look at the white rhinos and the white tigers... an many many other mammals. Some animals are greater in number in captivity than they are in the wild now, and they're safer there. Imagine if we took all the baby white rhinos born over the next 10 years and just plopped them back out in the wild. I bet you a dollar they'd all be dead within a month. Sad? Yes... but look how well they live in the zoo. It's not such a bad deal for them after all.
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Paretroplus menerambo Pinstripe Damba is one of the fish from madagascar that is on the Critically endangered species list right now. And sure enough we can buy this fish right now for $55 a pair (wilds) but then whats going to happen once there are no more in the wild?
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Just a note if you know of someone that is selling actually wild caught fish of a critically endangered species they are for one thing probably lying about the source of the fish and if they are not lying they are violating the law. It is against federal law to sell or posess any wild caught endangered species without the proper permits.
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I have to agree with Sean on this one too. Are you sure that what's for sale out there is actually wild? Is it possible that they were collected from the wild before they were listed as endangered and bred in ponds and THEN put on the market? This is what happens to a lot of fish we see on the wholesale lists as 'wild caught'... apparently 'raised in a pond by the lake' is the same thing.
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. There are cases of Piranha in the USA and snakeheads in Maryland USA all because some people bought these fish and either was not correctly informed of the requirements for the fish and was looking for a way to get rid of them or they got tired of them or they just thought it would be a funny joke to do this. These are the idiots that should not be able to have fish and animals at all. They are not responsable and all they did was introduce non native predatory fish into forien water ways.
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How true how true. These 'idiots' also breed, and teach their children to be irresponsible by example as well. Nothing you can do about that though... all we can do is educate as many people as we can... and hope that none of OUR fish end up in the wrong waters.
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. In Florida USA you can go to certian lakes and fish for Oscars. Again its a non native fish to our water ways that is reaping havoc on the local native fish. These are claimed to be excapies from local fish farms in Florida. Were there ways to prevent that? I think there was. Did the company do anything to prevent it? Probably not because as we all know to well companies are out to make money not spend money.
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Yeah, too bad they couldn't fork out the cash to have that big hurricane obliterated before it flooded the whole area. Some stuff just can't be helped, or there just isn't enough experience to know better until something bad happens. Florida is a great place to raise fish outdoors. It only makes sense to put them in ponds. Most people that find themselves 'into fish' don't just jump into it with wild-caught specimens. Most of us had a 'first tank' full of dime-store fish... even our first cichlid tank was probably stocked with florida farm-raised cichlids. Those farms are critical in sparking an interest... and that interest develops over time to produce enthusiasts and conservationists. The farms play a vital role, though most of us frown upon them for their roles in crossbreeding and 'escapees'... you can't diss them completely or the 'hobby' wouldn't be where it is today.
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the Madagascar government is not allowing anyone to be an agent for us to restock the lake,
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I would imagine that they aren't convinced that it's a good idea. They also must be certain that the effort would not further mess things up.
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But from my understanding they claim that they are more worried about people from other countries getting caught up in things that are happening there currently.
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This is it. It all comes down to people. The thing is, conservation is just not a priority during times of war, famine and poverty. People must exploit natural resources to survive.. even if it means losing a few 'inconsequential' (to them - don't yell at me) species along the way.
It's not just fish, you know... everything is in trouble in these areas. Primates, amphibians, birds, plants... and like I said, though it's a shame to see that these animals are disappearing in the wild, at least some of us are doing what we can to ensure that they exist SOMEWHERE... even if it's in a glass box of water. The bottom line is that you just CAN'T expect restocking efforts to work at all until you have STOPPED what's endangering them in the first place... and like Sean said, you then run into the problem of hoping that the animals you reintroduce know what the hell to do once they get there to survive. Do you know why fish have so many babies? The goal of any animal on the earth is to replace itself in the gene pool. That means that each pair of parents must produce two offspring that survive to reproduce. Fish have thousands of babies over their lifetime. The VAST majority will become food for something else before they reproduce. How many fish are you going to throw back into the water? How many of them will survive the 'learning' phase? How many will survive predation? I'm betting that if you dropped 5,000 menerambo into a lake, fewer than 10 will be left in a month's time. That's still critically endangered.
IMO, restocking just isn't realistic. Maybe eventually, but right now, efforts should focus on eradicating the pressures (and this is a social issue, not just environmental) and establishing breeding guidelines that will help to preserve the genetic makeup of each species as best we can. We will never be able to completely reverse the damage we (as a species) have done to Mother Nature, but she will recover when we stop... all in due time. We just need to learn from our mistakes.
Lee Ann
http://www.africancichlids.net/
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #715] |
Sun, 04 August 2002 18:08 |
Gass
Messages: 404
Registered: April 2002
Location: Lake Canyonyika TX |
Senior Member |
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This thread is bringing up some good points.
Here's something else to consider:
Almost everytime I hear about the woe's in Lake Victoria, the first thing that is usually mentioned is the evil Nile Perch. Nevermind that deforestation was well into swing in the late 1800's, or that industry was leaching raw sewage and other pollutants into the lake in the 1950's. One only has to look at the St. Lawrence river to see what manufacturing plants can do to a body of water and the endemic flora and fauna.
I offer this for consideration:
The Nile perch is native to the Nile river. The White Nile flows through Uganda and headwaters Lake Victoria at the city of Jinja. Who's to say that in 50, 100, 1000 years, the Nile perch or some subspecies of it, would not have entered Lake Victoria on it's own? Now realize I'm not supporting the introduction by man of this fish, but extension of range happens constantly with plants and animals. There are just many more factors than introduced species at work in both Lake Victoria and Madagascar. How many undiscovered plant and animal species have expired due to deforestation in the central and south american rain forests?
What I'm saying is that the native habitat has altered so much in Lake Victoria that reintroduction of fish once found there would be suicide for them. I feel that, as the VSSP has done with salvaging what they can of what is left, is the only way to preserve living specimens from the area.
Without the problems associated with the Nile Perch, the inhabitants of Lake Victoria would still be in peril. TRUE species of furu are probally a rareity in the lake now. What furu are left, especially in the Mwanza Gulf region, can't see through the murk in the pockets where they have been pushed and survive and thus, hybredization in the lake itself is (I feel) the largest concern. What fish are coming out of the lake as wilds, are, in all probability, mutts. It is for this reason that I believe that the best lines of mbipi are those long established aquarium populations that we keep in our tanks.
Enjoy them folks, it's all that is left.
Gas
http://www.africancichlids.net
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #717] |
Sun, 04 August 2002 19:22 |
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Granted, restocking in not the solution but it still helps perserve things in the long run. Pollution, mass foresting, etc all contribute and is the largest cause of species disapearing everyday. And yes fish do not always stay in the same area of the lakes and rivers, other wise how would you explain sting rays, mullets, sheepshead, etc fenturing up a brackish water canal in Cape Coral to a fresh water lake, same thing for sharks. A few years ago I tested my theory about fish in captivity being released back to wild and surviving, this was in conjuction with the local department of natural resourses Here in michigan, I took 35 bluegills along with some local channel catfish and kept them in a 280 gallon tank for 3 years, then released them back to the wild with tracking tags provided and recorded by the DNR. And sure enough, people today are still catch those fish with the tags on them 7 years after they were replaced to the wild. Even getting them to eat flake food bought at any local fish shop and worms bought at any local bate shop they ate them for 3 solid years and when they went back they were surviving. So far I know of 20 of the 35 that have been caught already, now out of 35 I would say that actually great odds. And your right also, there is no way to get all the introducted predators out of a lake, To do that one would have to kill off any and all species that are currently in the lake then have to restock it several years down the road. There were a few small lakes here in michigan that they did that to long ago and they are still reintroducing the species. No fishing or houseing my go on around that those lakes until further notice and the ones caught fishing there are hauled off to a local jail where they are held for no less than 90 days and then fined $3500.00 for just the first offence, its gets alot worse after the 2nd offence. Attempting to raise and restock a fish that is as far as anyone knows is completely extinct in the lake is not just for the enjoyment of seeing them in person, but also so that peopel such as Ad Konings, Paul losielle, George Barlow, etc... can dive there and do research for people to learn from. For example, I just recently viewed a vidow produced by national Geographic about lake tanganyika, And even they state that cichlids such as frontosa, Leleupi, "flashers", and many others do not just reside in one part of the lake. For example, how would you explain Ps.damasoni in lake malawi not only found at Pombo rocks, but in Mozambique as well? I would say that the fish does not stay in one specific spot in the lake, infact that proof that they are in more than one place. As for people selling endangered species, theres an easy way around that since the web we are on is world wide there is no single one government that can set laws or rules on the internet since it is as international as you can get. Many things that you can not buy in the USA are available over seas and funny thing is there is no laws in the USA saying that you can not own certian things, jsut that you can not use certian things. As far as items requiring permits, for me it was easy, but may not be so easy for others. Me and a local friend used to raise leopards and other exotic animals that we would buy on auctions and then sell them to zoos across the country. The zoos in return would donate some animals for us to breed and bring them the off spring. After being sued once for someone getting to close to a lions cage and getting injured we lost the license that we had, my buddy now has a license again and keeps bobcats, albino racoons, and even an eagle in his home now as pets. These permits I feel should be required for those buying piranha, snakeheads and any others that could cause havoc on local waterways. new York already does this and anyone found keeping Piranha with out the proper paperwork not only gets the fish taken from them but they also recieve jail time, and huge fines. otherwise the way I see it is that there will be a blanket ban put forth on any and all wild imports. Which will not make it so that the fish are not available locally since so many people do breed fish as it is in there nature to breed anyways, but before long a decent fish that would not cause havoc will be washed out and bland looking meaning that no one would be wanting to keep fish anylonger, or at least not as many. I can't say that it will happen for sure but with the way politics go, thats what we can expect. As far as the fish excaping in florida I know it can be stoped simply by enclosing the entire fish hatery, we have them like that up here near Lake michigan and even when it does flood the walls of the buildings keep the fish from wondering out to where they should not of been. Again the fish farms in florida only prove that companies are more worried about making money than they are about nature, or spending some cash to prevent such things from happening. The Oscars have really made a dent in the local fish in those lakes that they excaped into, did the companies even attempt to get some of them out? no, they just let it go and they were found by the average person out fishing with their son/ daughter. The one Fish farm up here that does have the sealed complex not only has high flood walls and a ceiling, but they also have nets in the lake they are near surrounding the complex so that if a fish does get out into the lake it does not make it far and the DNR spends the time to check for them within the neted area. What happens if they find the fish in the nets? Well the company is fined a huge amount and the state takes the fish out and takes them to zoos and other places so that people can learn from them. Again my feelings are that if the fish were to get away from teh farm it was poor planing on the farm for not having preventitive measures for such occurances. The reason why I wish to keep the lake stocked with the fish are are listed as extinct or endangers is that we are losing too many fish, animals, etc due to foresting, polution, etc.., and that I personally would like to still be able to at one time take a trip there and actually see with my own eyes how the fish act in the wild. I have been to several places for that reason, to see the fish and animals in their natural habitat so that I many learn from tehm, observe them, and even enjoy looking at them. I was sitting at my moms house in Florida and watched a Bald Eagle fish from the canal behind her house almost all day long. It was a sight that I would of loved to have had my niece and nefew there to see it because there will coem a day when that will no longer be able to be seen except for in books, but to see it in person is a whole different story.
Its not the agressiveness of your fish that matter, its how you raise them.
Been in the hobby of fish keeping since I was 7 when my mom bought me a 29gallon Clarity Plus acrylic tank and all the equipment to go with it. To this day that setup is still in use but the tanks in the house have grown. Now I have the following tanks. 90gallon, 75gallon, 55 gallon, 30 gallon, three 29 gallon, six 20 gallon high, seven 10 gallon tanks and a few birthing boxes I made myself. Soon to make more tanks out of acrylic and a product called Weld-On as the adhesive.
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #720] |
Sun, 04 August 2002 19:33 |
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My thoughts on hybridnation is that reguardless of interaction by humans its going to happen in the wild, its a way of survival for them. Nothing we can do to stop it and nothing we did caused it really. Do you honestly think that there are 20 or so different color variations of the same fish because we did this? No, it happens in the wild as well. Are all fish that we buy that are claimed to be "wilds" really wild fish? I feelsing are no not at all. One person comes to mind that is popular in Zambia for exporting fish. Are they wilds coming from his farm no way not even close since they were born, raised, and bred in captivity. How they can say they are wilds and get away with it is beyond me. There are companies out there that actually catch fish from the lakes, rivers, and streams, Jack wattley did this himself a few times. Those are what I would call wilds, they came from their natural water ways. This being one reason I would never buy a "wild fish" from the exporter in Zambia, simply because they are not actually wilds by any means. They are in fact raised in large tanks on the compound near the lake, but did the fish actually come from the lake? NO. I even ask the places I purchase fish from if they get them from that exporter and if they say yes then I turn away and walk out, if they can show proof that they came from a company that actually got them out of the lake, yes I will buy them even if they cost more than the ones from the other exporter. Most of your wholesale lists are from asian based companies, there is no way they can claim anything they farm is wild aside from a few species of fish like betta Splendens. but there again they would not be farming them, they would be collecting them from waterways. Not hatching ponds on their compounds.
Its not the agressiveness of your fish that matter, its how you raise them.
Been in the hobby of fish keeping since I was 7 when my mom bought me a 29gallon Clarity Plus acrylic tank and all the equipment to go with it. To this day that setup is still in use but the tanks in the house have grown. Now I have the following tanks. 90gallon, 75gallon, 55 gallon, 30 gallon, three 29 gallon, six 20 gallon high, seven 10 gallon tanks and a few birthing boxes I made myself. Soon to make more tanks out of acrylic and a product called Weld-On as the adhesive.
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #727] |
Sun, 04 August 2002 22:31 |
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Actually according to the Fish and Game Commision in Lee County they were not released for fishermen. I know this due to the fact that I used to live in Florida about 2 years ago. My stepfather and I were fishing in Lake Okeechobee and thats were we caught one. And when we asked about it they said that they had excaped from a few local fish farms and that they have made a dramatic decrease in local fish populations. They are however in higher numbers closer to Miami Florida though.
Its not the agressiveness of your fish that matter, its how you raise them.
Been in the hobby of fish keeping since I was 7 when my mom bought me a 29gallon Clarity Plus acrylic tank and all the equipment to go with it. To this day that setup is still in use but the tanks in the house have grown. Now I have the following tanks. 90gallon, 75gallon, 55 gallon, 30 gallon, three 29 gallon, six 20 gallon high, seven 10 gallon tanks and a few birthing boxes I made myself. Soon to make more tanks out of acrylic and a product called Weld-On as the adhesive.
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #730] |
Sun, 04 August 2002 22:59 |
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Yes I have read that, but I know what I was told by the local game and wildlife commision down there. There is one (just one) lake that was purposely stocked for fishing of these fish. The others were not. just for the record thats 1 lake out of 15 that was stocked by the US government under protest of the Florida Game and wildlife commision. But the stocked lake was in the northern half (near Jacksonville) of the state and not in the southern parts near Miami.
Its not the agressiveness of your fish that matter, its how you raise them.
Been in the hobby of fish keeping since I was 7 when my mom bought me a 29gallon Clarity Plus acrylic tank and all the equipment to go with it. To this day that setup is still in use but the tanks in the house have grown. Now I have the following tanks. 90gallon, 75gallon, 55 gallon, 30 gallon, three 29 gallon, six 20 gallon high, seven 10 gallon tanks and a few birthing boxes I made myself. Soon to make more tanks out of acrylic and a product called Weld-On as the adhesive.
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #732] |
Sun, 04 August 2002 23:09 |
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the only draw back to those pages are that most of them are way out of date. each one that I went to is the same as it was 8 months ago. I know of 13 more species that are in the local lakes up here that still have yet to be listed on the sites mentioned above. Worst part is, they have been in the lakes here for the last 4 years and still not noted by the government. Yet the local agencies have them on record LOL
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #736] |
Mon, 05 August 2002 00:05 |
LeeAnn
Messages: 351
Registered: April 2002
Location: TX - Mrs. Gas |
Senior Member |
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And yes fish do not always stay in the same area of the lakes and rivers, other wise how would you explain sting rays, mullets, sheepshead, etc fenturing up a brackish water canal in Cape Coral to a fresh water lake, same thing for sharks.
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I never said ALL fish stay put.
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how would you explain Ps.damasoni in lake malawi not only found at Pombo rocks, but in Mozambique as well? I would say that the fish does not stay in one specific spot in the lake, infact that proof that they are in more than one place.
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Ps. demasoni Pombo and Ps. demasoni Mozambique don't even look alike. They are isolated populations. There are probably more out there, even in other locations, but each variant will have its own unique look. Open water fish move around much more and have a more uniform appearance throughout the lake than do the rock cichlids such as mbuna in Malawi and the mbipi of Victoria.
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A few years ago I tested my theory about fish in captivity being released back to wild and surviving, this was in conjuction with the local department of natural resourses Here in michigan, I took 35 bluegills along with some local channel catfish and kept them in a 280 gallon tank for 3 years, then released them back to the wild with tracking tags provided and recorded by the DNR. And sure enough, people today are still catch those fish with the tags on them 7 years after they were replaced to the wild. Even getting them to eat flake food bought at any local fish shop and worms bought at any local bate shop they ate them for 3 solid years and when they went back they were surviving. So far I know of 20 of the 35 that have been caught already, now out of 35 I would say that actually great odds.
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Right. They came from the wild, they already knew how to survive. If you'd bred them and released their offspring after having been fed strictly flake, I bet it would be a different story. Also, though I don't have any personal experience with them, and my aunt the park ranger isn't available to ask , I doubt seriously that bluegills and channel cats are aufwuchs grazers.
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And your right also, there is no way to get all the introducted predators out of a lake, To do that one would have to kill off any and all species that are currently in the lake then have to restock it several years down the road.
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Have you any idea how very vast Lake Victoria is? Mission impossible. (insert theme music here)
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As for people selling endangered species, theres an easy way around that since the web we are on is world wide there is no single one government that can set laws or rules on the internet since it is as international as you can get.
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That's what customs is for. Ask your aunt about it. You can pay for anything anywhere over the internet, but unless you can FTP it through your modem, it still has to go through customs
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These permits I feel should be required for those buying piranha, snakeheads and any others that could cause havoc on local waterways. new York already does this and anyone found keeping Piranha with out the proper paperwork not only gets the fish taken from them but they also recieve jail time, and huge fines. otherwise the way I see it is that there will be a blanket ban put forth on any and all wild imports.
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Paperwork is another way for the government to make money. Permits don't make people responsible. My grandmother has a driver's license but that doesn't mean she's safe behind the wheel.
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Which will not make it so that the fish are not available locally since so many people do breed fish as it is in there nature to breed anyways, but before long a decent fish that would not cause havoc will be washed out and bland looking meaning that no one would be wanting to keep fish anylonger, or at least not as many.
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There are enough people out there that actually understand genetics enough to keep a color pattern going for generations that this should not be an issue. Look at guppies... (please, don't kill me for using the guppy analogy). We don't get them from the wild anymore, and they are anything but bland. There are people out there breeding cichlids for unnatural colors (German Red peacocks for example), but there are enough of us that are selective about which fish we put together with the goal of producing fish that look as close to their wild ancestors as possible that we WILL keep them from becoming bland.
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I was sitting at my moms house in Florida and watched a Bald Eagle fish from the canal behind her house almost all day long. It was a sight that I would of loved to have had my niece and nefew there to see it because there will coem a day when that will no longer be able to be seen except for in books, but to see it in person is a whole different story.
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And at least for now, while your neice and nephew are still young, you can take them to Canada to see all the bald eagles you want. Every time I go to New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, they're everywhere. You're right... it is a sight to behold.
[Updated on: Mon, 05 August 2002 00:29]
Lee Ann
http://www.africancichlids.net/
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #741] |
Mon, 05 August 2002 12:33 |
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Yes ron will be making a slight profit off some of the fish. He makes a living selling farm raised and imported fish. So really the money he would be making is from suppling the breeding stock to the breeders for the intial begining. There are many others in the group that already have these fish and are willing to give them to people inteested in breeding them for the cost of shipping only, meaning that person is not making any money from the sales of these fish. This is how I am getting the fish I will be breeding, all I pay is the shipping charges. No gain to the person sending them, just eh airlines for transporting them. If the fish I get are successful in breeding I will be more than willing to ship fry out to people at no cost other than the shipping. There is more to keeping and raising fish than making a profit. Just seems that far too many have lost that idea and wish to just make money.
Its not the agressiveness of your fish that matter, its how you raise them.
Been in the hobby of fish keeping since I was 7 when my mom bought me a 29gallon Clarity Plus acrylic tank and all the equipment to go with it. To this day that setup is still in use but the tanks in the house have grown. Now I have the following tanks. 90gallon, 75gallon, 55 gallon, 30 gallon, three 29 gallon, six 20 gallon high, seven 10 gallon tanks and a few birthing boxes I made myself. Soon to make more tanks out of acrylic and a product called Weld-On as the adhesive.
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #1186] |
Thu, 24 October 2002 04:31 |
samak
Messages: 52
Registered: October 2002 |
Member |
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Hello everybody, i have twoo friends of mine( Y.fermon mnhn, O.Berthelot) who fished on the Kenyan part of the victoria lake in 2000. They saw that species of zooplanctivorous haplochromines like argens, pyrrocephalus, piceatus come to have increasing populations, that the Nile perch is going to disapeared from this part of the lake( it's lived since the 30's in this part ). The rocky community were abondant with a lot of species( some of them unknown), it's the same for sand fishes community, they fished a lot of specimen for museum collections. We met F.Witte and Kees Goundward in Leiden who tell us that it was the piscivorous who suffered the most from the Nile perch introduction and that a great part of the lake was nat explored. So Keep optimist, the haplos have good adaptative responses to their environnement.
@ bientôt
like an haplo in the water
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #1208] |
Mon, 28 October 2002 03:50 |
samak
Messages: 52
Registered: October 2002 |
Member |
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Hello, we all know that haplochromines have really good adaptative responses to wild pressure. most of the 400 species are unknown( 108 described) The danger don't come directly from Nile perch and tilapias introduced but also from pollution and human activity. BUT we must stay optimimistic due to the great power of adaptation of the fishes.
Friendly Christophe
like an haplo in the water
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #2136] |
Mon, 18 August 2003 07:42 |
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"Team Leader - Aquarium
Zoological Society of London"
said
"
Additionally disease
issues, such as mycobacterium, in captive fish stocks has prevented
re-introduction in Lake Victoria and will also affect such efforts in other
places. Research into this problem has started and hopefully will
contribute to solutions regarding the re-introduction problem."
and pointed to this web site
http://www.iucn.org/themes/ssc/pubs/policy/reinte. htm
and added
"At the moment a fish-specific
document is being developed which will address the issues that affect the
re-introduction of species to an aquatic environment"
If you are not working for reintroduction what are you doing? Do you think the zoos get money from heaven, no we who spend our lives as conservationists have to make money elsewhere because its not coming from the public or fish wholesalers tax. What are you guys doing with Vics if not making money off of them and us? And what is it going to hurt you if some of them get to go home? Really sad to listen to all this guess work.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 August 2003 07:52]
Thank You, Jon Porter
Tree Of Life American Wildlife Society
http://www.cichlidfish.net
http://www.africandivingltd.com/
http://www.fishpost.com
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| Re: Restocking endangered cichilds [message #2142] |
Mon, 18 August 2003 22:02 |
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Re: Restocking endangered cichilds
